[A forum discussion with a vax advocate.  You can see how closed her mind is, even when you spell it out they avoid replying and just come back with general medical propaganda.  It shows the power of medical brainwashing and groupthink.]
 

Are vaccines a waste of time?

 
 
Author  
Aasa
 

Canada
99 Posts

Posted - 07/17/2007 :  15:23:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
thisislondon.co.uk article
There is an opportunity to send comments.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23404585-details/Are+vaccines+a+waste+of+time/article.do

 
Lee77c
 

7 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  10:44:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I realy don't understand what the article is trying to acheive? It seems a bit irresponible to suggest to parents that all of these vaccinations aren't needed? Aren't most of the diseases named in this article rare because of the immunisation programmes?
 
Lee77c
 

7 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  12:08:50  
I couldn't see the relevance of that link to immunisation in the UK. I think that it is irresponsible to say that diseases such as diphtheria, Hib, measles, meningitis etc are 'not that serious' and saying things like this are an insult to the children and parents of children who have been seriously damaged by these diseases. I understand that parents need to be given the facts about vaccines, and ultimately we as parents do have a choice whether to get our kids immunised or not - but weighing up all the evidence out there, I would still want to see my kid protected against these serious diseases, when there is a method of protecting them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4871728.stm
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4914a2.htm
 
 
john
 

United Kingdom
145 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  15:27:50  
quote:
Originally posted by Lee77c

I couldn't see the relevance of that link to immunisation in the UK. I think that it is irresponsible to say that diseases such as diphtheria, Hib, measles, meningitis etc are 'not that serious' and saying things like this are an insult to the children and parents of children who have been seriously damaged by these diseases. I understand that parents need to be given the facts about vaccines, and ultimately we as parents do have a choice whether to get our kids immunised or not - but weighing up all the evidence out there, I would still want to see my kid protected against these serious diseases, when there is a method of protecting them.
Vaccines don't protect, they just cause disease and death. Measles is the best example, deaths declined by 99.4% before vaccination, and it is safe under proper management. And they have suppressed the use of vitamin C, for 58 years, which makes all infectious diseases completely safe. What does that say about them?

Last time I looked the meningitis C vaccine had killed 11 http://www.whale.to/vaccine/meningitis1.html

see http://www.whale.to/v/meningitis8.html

the MMR vaccine kills more kids now than measles would be doing, plus it cause autism.

Meningitis looks to be a poison disease like polio (both caused by vaccines), so how do you ptotect someone from poisons with a vaccine?

Just look at Prevnar http://www.whale.to/v/prevnar.htm

"My first lesson in vaccine propaganda is when I learned, back in the forties, that the "epidemics" of meningitis amongst miltitary recruits were not epidemics but clusters, and the second thing I learned was that only the freshly vaccinated recruits "caught" meningitis. The mess sargeant didn't, the drill sargeant didn't, only the recruits did. Not even the girls who worked at the base exchanges and service clubs, with whom the recruits played kissy face "caught" meningitis - only the freshly vaccinated recruits "caught" it."---Daniel H Duffy Sr. DC

Edited by - john on 07/24/2007 15:32:58
 
Lee77c
 

7 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 : 
I thought that meningitis was a disease caused by bacteria? I didn't think that poisons had anything to do with it? I don't understand what you mean when you say a 'poison disease'.
I do know that Men C outbreaks are very serious, a girl from my year in college died from a meningococcal infection and another was left profoundly deaf during the same outbreak. These diseases are serious, and whatever your views on the combined measles, mumps, rubella vaccine,to suggest that diseases of this type aren't serious and are only caused by vaccines is irresponsible and could actually be putting kids at risk.
 
john
 

United Kingdom
145 Posts

 
quote:
Originally posted by Lee77c

I don't understand what you mean when you say a 'poison disease'.

then you need to look at vaccine induced polio http://www.whale.to/vaccines/polio1.html
vaccine induced meningitis http://www.whale.to/vaccines/meningitis2.htm did you know they withdrew the last MMR vaccine because it induced meningitis?
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lee77c
These diseases are serious, and whatever your views on the combined measles, mumps, rubella vaccine,to suggest that diseases of this type aren't serious and are only caused by vaccines is irresponsible and could actually be putting kids at risk.


Meningitis is serious but no vaccination is going to protect anyone, you would be more likely to get meningits from the vaccine or an antibiotic.

Measles isn't serious, no one in my childhood (1950's) ever worried about measles, it was nice few days in sick bay. The only kids who die are the ones on drugs like steroids or chemotherapy, or sick malnourished kids. The UK death "was suffering from an underlying lung condition" and it is unwise to vaccinate sick kids.

If an MD in 1860 said he never lost a case what does that tell you? And did you know 50% of measles cases now have been vaccinated?

Your comment about puting lives at risk is just allopathic propoganda.

have a look at the measles death graph http://www.whale.to/m/measlesdeaths1.html and tell me why vaccination gets the credit for that?

and then you have the vaccine induced asthma deaths http://www.whale.to/v/offitt.html I know one kid who has life threatening asthma due to MMR.


PS We would have a handful of measles deaths now with or without vaccination, probably less than the MMR is killing now, and we have 1 in 58 autism cases mostly from vaccination, plus all the other vaccine induced diseases such as asthma. Do the maths

Edited by - john on 07/24/2007 16:39:22
 
Lee77c
 

7 Posts

 
John you wrote "Measles isn't serious, no one in my childhood (1950's) ever worried about measles, it was nice few days in sick bay"

According to the statistics you directed me to, in the years 1950,1951 over 500 people died from measles - so I should have thought there were at least 500 reletives who considered the infection serious and worried about it. Do you have any information on the numbers of children who suffered serious complications from their measles infections?

I'm sorry to say, but I find your dismissal that "The only kids who die are the ones on drugs like steroids or chemotherapy, or sick malnourished kids" is actually distasteful toward parents of children who have conditions requiring these treatments.

My views aren't propoganda, I make my own informed choices after looking at as many evidence sources as I can - part of the reason that I looked at this discussion forum. I do not believe that all those involved in medical science and public health are part of some conspiracy.

I stand by my original view that trivailising diseases like this puts our children at risk.
 
john
 

United Kingdom
145 Posts

 
I have found people believe what they want, regardless of the evidence.

New information just obtained under FOIA shows in 1990 in the UK there were at least 7,480 adverse vaccine reactions and 1,990 serious ones with approximately 70 deaths associated with triple vaccines (DTP and MMR).

So it is pretty obvious to me the vaccine kills more than the disease.

Measles was killing around 80 every year, just before vaccination, and if you follow the graph to today then it would be a handful without vaccination. I think half the deaths were due to drugs, so the drugs killed them, essentially. I was just stating the facts.

If you look at the history of cancer therapies you will find allopathy has suppressed all of the non-toxic therapies, and made it illegal for any non MD to treat cancer with herbs, homeopathy. So those deaths are due to them.

A good example is the suppression of vitamin C as a cure for infections. Which would have probably saved those kids on drugs.

I do not believe that all those involved in medical science and public health are part of some conspiracy.

There is a well proven 100 year old medical conspiracy, but only about 1 in 10,000 medical people know about it. So not all are involved, you just need to set up a monopoly and use the government to enforce it for you. Once that is in place it just runs itself, and few know about it.

As I said you can prove it easily just with vitamin C

Prevents cot-death, which would have saved 200,000 babies, so far since discovery in 1968

Reverses heart disease

Cures all infections.

You might not think that is propaganda, but it is not true, and propaganda is mostly lies, and who would spread that lie?

I haven't seen any morbidity stats for measles, deaths have to be recorded, so we tend to use them, and it stands to reason morbidity is tied to them.

"There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunization of children does more harm than good."---Dr. J. Anthony Morris, former Chief Vaccine Control Officer and research virologist, US FDA

Edited by - john on 07/24/2007 17:24:23
 
john
 

United Kingdom
145 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  18:38:21    
To cut to the chase:

The disease
Why do you believe Allopaths who have a pecunary and professional interest in measles vaccination, and the only thing that gets people to vaccinate is fear. They even have a dept (in Germany anyway) dealing with the question of how much fear they need to generate to get people to vaccinaate. Hardly an indication of someone you would want to follow.

Why don't you want to believe naturopaths or nutritional medical doctors, or anti-vaccine MDs who say it is safe? And who don't have a professional or pecunary interest in saying that?

The vaccine
1. Why do you want to vaccinate when the vaccine has never been shown to do anything, eg eliminate deaths? Even if it did get rid of deafness or whatever else it did, do you think that is worth 1 in 58 kids getting autism from the combined vaccines?

2. If the vaccine is killing more people than measles would be doing now, with or without vaccination, (assuming the vax did anything), then whaat is the point in vaccinating, just from a financial point?


Why do you want to trust people when they have suppressed Vitamin C cure for infections such as measles. Does that suggest you trust what they say over measles, over the people who say it is safe?

Hardly. I have enough to worry about with the state of the world, chemtrails, covert-fascism, cell phone towers etc, and with 7 kids to look after, than to worry about some mild diseases for no reason

To me they have lied and I was always told not to ever pay much attention to what a liar says, especially when they have a interest, and huge professional one, vaccination is THE PR cloak of ALLopathy, the Emperors Clothes.

"There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunization of children does more harm than good."---Dr. J. Anthony Morris, former Chief Vaccine Control Officer and research virologist, US FDA
 
Lee77c
 

7 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2007 :  09:37:43  
I'm sorry John, but I just don't buy into these 'paranoid x-files conspiracy theories'. My views on measles and other diseases are shaped by a combintation medical facts, my own experiences, people that I've known and their experiences. Infectious diseases are dangerous. I am not part of some conspiracy (and before you suggest it, I am not having my mind controled by means of some electronic chip that has been planted in my brain by the government without my knowledge).

Vaccination does save lives throughout the world. Contrary to what you suggest, this has been proved by repeated peer-reviewed research studies
Autho
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john
 

United Kingdom
145 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2007 :  12:26:48  
You are a member of what Mendelsohn called the Church of Allopathy.

I always enjoy seeing what comes up, but hard to convert as a Catholic.

You didn't answer any of my questions above but call me a conspiracy nut, essentially, which is the usual rationalisation used to block non-allopathic heretical thought http://www.whale.to/a/conspiracy.html

and allude to some studies out there somewhere which either don't exist, or when you look at them don't measure up, as Viera Scheibner found when she looked at about 3,000. And there is plenty of studies to show mercury causes autism. And there are thousands showing vaccines are dangerous and cause numerous diseases http://www.whale.to/vaccine/citations.html

There are 2,000 peer review studies showing vitamin c is good for infections and more, yet it isn't used.

the smallpox vax was killing 25,000 babies every year in the uk 1880, 6,000 in 1921, and that is the gold standard of vaccines!

john

"Vaccination procedures are a highly politically motivated non-science, whose practitioners are only interested in injecting multitudes of vaccines without much interest or care as to their effects. Data collection on reactions to vaccines is only paid lip service, and the obvious ineffectiveness of vaccines to prevent diseases is glossed over. The fact that natural infectious diseases have beneficial effect on the maturation and development of the immune system is ignored or deliberately suppressed. Consequently, parents of small children and any potential recipients of vaccines and any orthodox medications should be wary of any member of the medical establishment (which is little more than a highly politicised business system) extolling the non-existent virtues of vaccination."--Viera Scheibner

 
 
 
Posted - 07/25/2007 :  12:57:48  
Lee77c you really need to do a lot more research, you have been brainwashed and fear mongered into your beliefs.


I can tell for a fact Lee that many Doctors and Scientists know the truth and do not vaccinate their own children but have to keep mum about it or be struck of.

alumiunium, mercury,formalyhide, etc etc of course they are safe Lee as the drug company and Doctor have told you and like a good conditioned person you beleive them, now tell me why the Doctor, polititian, or drug company who have told all this is safe will not accept $75,000 to drink a standard vaccine and prove to the world that they practise what they preach.

HPV vaccine never tested for carcinagenic action or if it will it cause barroness in woman, its a huge bloody experiment our kids and if you cant see that and allow yourself to be brainwashed by pseudo science and scaremongering there is not much hope.

please expalin why tens of thousand of peole contract mumps and measles depste being fully vaccinated?
please expain why they have found vaccine matter in cancer tumours?

Please expain why vaccinated children are 2.5 times more likey to suffer from mental health problems compared to non vaccinated children.

Big Pharma and their puppets in Government are the biggest threat to your families health and well being while they pretend to be the opposite.
 

Edited by - Barefoot on 07/25/2007 13:02:34
 
Lee77c
 

7 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2007 :  14:57:18
John, I hate to point this out, but you were the one that actually brought up conspiracy theories in this thread.

I came to this discussion forum with an open mind. I am extremely disappointed by the conclusions you and Barefoot have drawn on me, especially since you know next to nothing about me. I am not brain-washed, I am not a member of any church, catholic, allopathic or otherwise; indeed I can see the benefit of many forms of natural therapy.

I have conducted my own research into the literature for and against vaccination (not relying on the opinions of Veira Scheibner, who is actually a Geology professor not an expert in Biology, Biochemisty, Pharmacology etc.), and I have done so with an open mind, letting the evidence speak for itself. The evidence still points to the fact that for significant numbers of children, infectious childhood diseases are serious and are cause for concern. From everything that I have seen the over-whelming majority of research also shows that immunisation offers protection to children (and adults for that matter) from many forms of these serious infection.


 
 
john
 

United Kingdom
145 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2007 :  00:21:43  
You say that but it just isn't true. No victim of medical propaganda has ever realised it. Having a need to defend vaccination is pretty strange in someone, I presume, with no financial or pecuniary interest in the practice. Why would anyone feel the need to do that otherwise?

A medicine of one group of medical people, and unused by the rest.

Do you think you need a medical education to understand the science, and a geology one isn't good enough? How absurd. That is just ad hominem.

Only simple stats are needed and smallpox vax was so easy to take apart I still have to pinch myself to believe that so many people believe in it.

You don't have any evidence, alluding to such evidence isn't much help to me. I have taken apart vaccination just with the stats.

"The subject of Vaccination, ... is, fortunately, one on which anyone capable of appreciating figures can form a sound opinion." M. BEDDOW BAYLY M.R.C.S., L.R.C.P.

And anyone can see MMR is killing more now than measles would be doing.

Put your evidence out for me to see, otherwise you just sound like the average joe in the street who has all these beliefs but no argument. You can't debate without evidence.

Smallpox saved millions eg? Where is the evidence for that? I have all the stats for the first 120 years of vaccination. Can you point out where I can going wrong in reading the graphs as it looks to me with this one http://www.whale.to/a/biggs_graph_g.html that smallpox increased with vaccination.

john

"Truth is a fruit that can only be picked when it is very ripe."--Voltaire
 
Aasa
 

Canada
99 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2007 :  01:37:59
I have just finished reading Gary Matsumoto's "Vaccine-A The Covert Government Experiment That's Killing Our Soldiers and Why GI's Are Only the First Victims" ( http://www.vaccine-a.com/ ). That was a real eye-opener! If governments and health agencies which are there supposedly to help protect people's health can covertly experiment on citizens, in this case their own troops, without obtaining informed consent, how can we trust them to be doing the best by our children? These same agencies deny, deny, and deny some more when things start going wrong and adverse reactions occur to whatever experimental vaccines they were injecting in the name of protecting soldiers from possible biological weapons, often without any sort of informed consent. If various agencies in the U.S. can be vehement deniers of ingredients in anthrax vaccines possibly causing signs and symptoms of "Gulf War Syndrome" (such as autoimmune-like and neurological disorders), I am sure that they (including similar agencies in other countries)are equally capable of similar behavior regarding childhood vaccines which have caused problems for some (perhaps even many) children. It seems that they have too much invested in these vaccines, to be able to easily turn around and admit that they may have made a mistake.

When I was a child, back in the 1950s and 1960s, we had no vaccines for measles and mumps, and although most of us contracted these diseases in childhood, we overcame them with little fuss. They were certainly not considered "dread" diseases, at least not in the developed world. Over the years, I have had coughs and colds that were worse than what I ever experienced with measles, mumps, or even chicken pox.
 
john
 

United Kingdom
145 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2007 :  08:47:33  
You can see how they amde it more serious when they had a vaccine to sell http://www.whale.to/vaccines/measles12.html

more striking with chickenpox http://www.whale.to/v/chicken1.html which was harmless in 1890 but dangerous with steroids--then then sell the vaccine because the steroids kill people by taking down their immune system.

The problem most people have with waking up is the nasty realisation the vaccine/drug industry is a psychopath, and the priests are mindlessly following propaganda. 1 in 10,000 at a rough guess know the reality. Although a short step is just to follow homeopathy or naturopathy, you then can avoid finding out the true nature of allopathy.

With anthrax is is pretty obvious they are out to injure their troops, although some say it is an HIV vaccine experiment, but over 500,000 troops have been invalided out.

I think tghis interview nails it on the head http://www.whale.to/v/rapp.html

"There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunization of children does more harm than good."---Dr. J. Anthony Morris, former Chief Vaccine Control Officer and research virologist, US FDA
 
Lee77c
 

7 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2007 :  13:00:52  
"Having a need to defend vaccination is pretty strange in someone, I presume, with no financial or pecuniary interest in the practice. Why would anyone feel the need to do that otherwise?" - John's view.

Contrary to some jaded opinions, there are people who belong to the scientific, medical and public health communities who believe in what they are doing and are committed to protecting the health of the population. I have my opinion because I know how serious infectious disease can be. Infectious diseases are not things of the past, they are not trivial matters and they can be a very real cause for concern particularly for children and more vulnerable members of the community.

At present there is a large measles outbreak in Switzerland. Ten per-cent of the 443 cases for which information was available required hospitalisation. Although no deaths have occured at present in this outbreak, seven per-cent were hospitalised with pneumonia as a complication, seven per-cent were suffering from Otitis media as a serious complication and one per-cent (four cases) were suffering from encephalitis (inflammation of the brain).

http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ew/2007/070726.asp#1

These are not lies, this is not scare mongering, they are simple facts.

"Do you think you need a medical education to understand the science, and a geology one isn't good enough? How absurd." quote from John.

No, I don't think you need a medical education to understand science. I believe that in order to understand science you need to thoroughly research the arguments for and against, taking into account the caveats and potential flaws on both side, then come to a carefully reasoned conclusion. Pre-judgment and bias chould have no place in scientific discussion. I am not a medic but I do know that the kind of sweeping generalisation that have been made in previous posts in this thread do not represent the whole picture and are misguided to say the least.

To say that these diseases aren't serious, and that nobody used to worry about them back in the days when they were rife, is a blinkered, gross misrepresentation of the facts. Even if people choose not to vaccinate, they must be made aware that these diseases can prove very serious and that there is a need to seek medical advice if their child is suffering from such a disease.

To say that these diseases are nothing to worry about is misguided and irresponsible.

 
 
Janet
 

52 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2007 :  15:53:36  
At least you can seek medical advice and treatment for these diseases unlike ailments caused by vaccinations - I know this from experience.

My trust in vaccinations was obliterated by a network of psychopathic Health Professionals and Civil Servants who foolishly attempted to cover-up a vaccine blunder involving my child.
 
john
 

United Kingdom
145 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2007 :  17:50:28  
Allopathy has to make a big song and dance about measles for obvious reasons. If they can't handle measles let the doctors who can do so!

And as I said many times before, MMR deaths excede measles deaths, and MMR disease exceeds anything measles ever did, and as Janet says, treating measles is a lot easier than autism and nasty bowel diseases.

And at the risk of boring myself to death by repetition, measles vaccination never eliminated measles deaths, so MMR vaccination wouldn't have prevented any of the measles situation in Switzerland, for one thing over 50% of those will have been vaccinated.

After three years of study, a Medical Working Group representing 180 Swiss medical doctors specializing in general medicine, internal medicine and pediatrics published an article in the Spring 1992 Journal of Anthroposophic Medicine entitled "The Immunization Campaign Against Measles, Mumps and Rubella, Coercion Leading to Uncertainy: Medical Objections to a Continued MMR Immunization Campaign in Switzerland," concluding that mandatory, mass vaccination with MMR vaccine is ineffective and dangerous.

'ineffective and dangerous'

But pretty obvious when you look at all of the evidence without blinkers. Mind you, you can't beat medical mind control

"network of psychopathic Health Professionals and Civil Servants"

Hit the nail on the head there http://www.whale.to/b/psychopaths_h.html best to know your enemy.

john

"There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunization of children does more harm than good."---Dr. J. Anthony Morris, former Chief Vaccine Control Officer and research virologist, US FDA

Edited by - john on 07/27/2007 18:12:16